by Kevin Stilley
(Another Example Of How Fox News May Do The Absolute Worst Job Of Political Reporting, Analysis, And Commenting Of Any Television Network)
In a recent segment of Hannity & Colmes, Alan Colmes and Mark Steyn (sitting in for Sean Hannity) were joined by Robert Novak to discuss Mike Huckabee and his Baptist supporters. The following is a copy of the transcript with my comments inserted in red.
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COLMES: Mike Huckabee's presidential campaign has defied the odds with his recent upswing in the polls. The former Arkansas governor and Baptist minister has become a major player for the Republican nomination. But not all his fellow Baptists have lined up behind him. With us now, syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Robert Novak.
Not all his fellow Baptists have lined up behind him? Please name me one person in the history of all American politics of whom it could be said that everyone in his denomination lined up behind him. Before we even get into the silliness that follows in this interview, the topic itself is complete and utter nonsense. Can someone please look up straw-man argument in the dictionary and email the definition to Fox News.
COLMES: Talk about how this could be hurting Huckabee. Is he being hurt by this, Robert?ROBERT NOVAK, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I think so when the word gets out. He's essentially an evangelical candidate. That's his support. That's the reason that people are coming out to vote for him in the Iowa caucuses. And when you find Judge Paul Pressler of Texas, one of the most esteemed conservatives in the Baptist movement, who has endorsed Fred Thompson, and is known to feel that Huckabee was on the wrong side in the Baptist wars, fighting between the liberals and the conservatives; I think that's a serious problem.Someone please tell me that out of 16 million Southern Baptists Novak does not rely upon what one single Baptist has to say to argue that "Baptists are not supporting Mike Huckabee." I have a nine-year old son who can see the problem with this. Can someone please look up scientific polling in the dictionary and email Fox News a copy of the definition.
Novak refers several times to the Baptist movement. However, he never tells us what Baptist movement he is talking about. The reason? There is no such thing as a current Baptist movement. There are Baptists of many stripes, Baptists with a plethora of agendas, Baptists who want change, and Baptists who are completelty tuned out; but there is no current monolithic "Baptist movement." Novak knows little to nothing about Baptists.
The Conservative Resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention began to gather steam in the 1970's and finally took control of the denominational structure in the 1990's . However, Novak extrapolates beyond the Conservative Resurgence to imply that there is currently some kind of movement. Utter nonsense.
What about the Conservative Resurgence? Was Huckabee on the wrong side of the Baptist Wars? I was there, I was part of the Conservative Resurgence, and I can tell you that Mike Huckabee is not a liberal Baptist. However, maybe it would be good to inquire as to the identity of the candidate whom Huckabee ran against in the 1989 election for President of the Arkansas Baptist Convention. This is the person that Judge Pressler indicates was the candidate of the right, so it would be interesting to see what he has to say about Huckabee.
In 1989 Mike Huckabee ran against Dr. Ronnie Floyd for the presidency of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention. What does Dr. Ronnie Floyd think of Mike Huckabee? Ronnie Floyd has endorsed Mike Huckabee and serves as an advisor to him on his Faith and Family Values Coalition.
If Mike Huckabee was a "liberal Baptist" as Bob Novak is trying to make him out to be, Ronnie Floyd would not be in his camp at this time.
Let's move to the next lame argument in Novak's smear piece. He claims that Judge Pressler's endorsement of Fred Thompson will surely swing Baptists away from Huckabee. Well, Pressler's endorsement took place months ago and is well known to any Baptist who might care. Has Fred Thompson seen a surge of Baptists flocking into his pasture? No. Why?
Soul competency is an important tenet of Baptist identity. No need to look it up in the dictionary unless you want to send the definition to Fox News -- I will explain. Baptists are not herd animals. We believe that we stand before God as individuals and we do not allow someone else to make up our minds for us. Endorse all you want, but most Baptists critically examine the facts and decide for themselves.
This was illustrated in Judge Pressler's endorsement of a candidate in the 2005 Southern Baptist Convention presidential race. His endorsement did not seem to move the needle at all for his preferred candidate. Judge Pressler was of great service and influence decades ago during the Baptist Wars, but a new day has arisen. Baptists continue to respect Pressler, but it is a mistake to overestimate his influence even in Baptist affairs, let alone in the field of secular politics.
What was it that General MacArthur said, "....old soldiers never die; they just fade away."
Huckabee takes the position that the Baptists are almost obliged to support him, that they would be abandoning him to the secularists if they didn't support him. But when somebody like Judge Pressler supports Fred Thompson, it shows there's a split in the movement.
This isn't just nonsense, it is an out and out lie. Mike Huckabee has never taken the position that Baptists are obliged to support him. This is either another example of Novak's poor journalism/research, or it is another example of him engaging in misrepresentation in an attempt to lead people astray (of which numerous examples could be cited).
COLMES: As I understand it, what Huckabee did -- I mean, he's pro- environment. He wants to reach out to people from different countries. I guess some people on the far right have a problem with that. But isn't that part of what Christians actually preach, caring for your fellow person, caring for the environment, being a -- stewardship of God's creation? Isn't he doing what many Christians would say that's what we should do?
Alan, the answer to this is yes, but I am sure that Novak will avoid the question and try to beat the dead horse that we have already shown to be either bad journalism or a calculated attempt to mislead. Let's see what he says...
NOVAK: Alan, you may not realize it, but there's been a huge fight in the Baptist -- Southern Baptist Convention, where they felt that the establishment people, people like you, were taking over.
I told you he would avoid your question.
COLMES: People like me.
NOVAK: The Christian left was taking over, and the conservatives came back and fought. Governor Huckabee was on the opposite side of that when he was president of the Arkansas Baptist Convention. And Judge Pressler, who doesn't say much about him on the record, does say on the record that he never knew a conservative that Governor Huckabee appointed when he was in the church.
If it is true that Judge Pressler does not know a conservative that Governor Huckabee appointed, then it shows a horrible lack of interest and knowledge in what actually took place. Pressler does NOT say that Huckabee did not make conservative appointments, he says that he is ignorant of those appointments. This says more about Judge Pressler than it does about Huckabee. This confessed ignorance invalidates any other supposed insights this person might share.
COLMES: How much does this mean in terms of if he even gets a nomination, general election, how powerful is the block he's tries to woo as we head toward 2008? Are they as big as they were four, eight, 12 years ago?
NOVAK: Well, I think they are. They're essential to his getting nominated. The question is, if the ordinary evangelical begins to say that, my goodness, the conservatives in our movement don't like Huckabee, he's in big trouble. He's in big trouble as early as January 3rd on the night of the Iowa caucuses.
Uh, Mr. Novak, do you have any idea who has endorsed Mike Huckabee? Are you claiming that the following people are religious liberals?
Tim LaHaye and his spouse, Beverly LaHaye, who founded Concerned Women of America.
The Georgia Right to Life PAC
Jerry Falwell, Jr., President of Liberty University
Dr. Jerry Jenkins, best-selling author, including the Left Behind series; Colorado
Zig Ziglar, Author and motivational speaker; Texas
Star Parker, Founder and president of CURE; Washington D.C.
Karen Testerman, Founder and Executive Director of the Cornerstone Policy Research; New Hampshire
Michael Farris, Chair of Home School Legal Defense Association and Chancellor of Patrick Henry College; Virginia
Rev. Keith Butler, Founding Pastor of Word of Faith International Christian Center Church; Michigan
Thomas Glessner, attorney, author, and Founder/President of the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates; Virginia
William J. Murray, Chair of Religious Freedom Coalition, Chair of Government is Not God PAC, and author; Washington D.C.
Randy Alcorn, Founder and Director of Eternal Perspective Ministries, best-selling author of 28 books, fiction and nonfiction; Oregon
Dr. Ronnie Floyd, Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church of Springdale and The Church at Pinnacle Hills / Former President of the Pastor’s Conference/ Former Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention; Arkansas
Michael Heath, Executive Director of Christian Civic League of Maine; Maine
Don Wildmon, Founder and Chairman of American Family Association; Mississippi
Bishop John Gimenez, International Overseer of Rock Ministerial Family, in conjunction with Rock Church International and co-founder of Rock Church in Virginia Beach; Virginia
Pastor Anne Gimenez, Co-founder and pastor of Rock Church in Virginia Beach; Virginia
Dr. Mark Bailey, President of Dallas Theological Seminary; Texas
Stephen Strang, Founder and President of Strang Communications and Founder of Charisma Magazine; Florida
Rick Scarborough, Founder and President of Vision America; Texas
Dr. Joe Fuiten, Founder of Positive Christian Agenda and Pastor of Cedar Park Church; Washington
Jerry Cox, President of Arkansas Family Council; Arkansas
Janet Folger, President of Faith2Action; Florida
Jim Pfaff, President and CEO of the Colorado Family Action; Colorado
Mathew Staver, Founder and Chairman of Liberty Counsel/ Dean of Liberty University Law School; Virginia
Kelly Shackelford, Chief Counsel, Liberty Legal Institute and President of Free Market Foundation; Texas
Phil Burress, President of Citizens for Community Values; Ohio
Dr. Jack Graham, Pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church, Former President of Southern Baptist Convention; Texas
Dr. James T. Draper Jr., Former President of Southern Baptist Convention/ Former President of Lifeway Christian Resources; Texas
Dr. Jerry Vines, Former President of Southern Baptist Convention/ Former Pastor of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, FL / Founder of Jerry Vines Ministries; Georgia
Dr. Daniel L. Akin, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary; North Carolina
Dr. Jay Strack, President/ Founder of Student Leadership University, World- renowned Southern Baptist communicator and minister; Florida
Dr. Billy McCormack, Pastor of University Baptist Church/ Founding National Board Member of Christian Coalition; Louisiana
Luana Stoltenberg, a Davenport pro-life activist.
Chuck Hurley, president of the Iowa Family Policy Center
Justin Taylor (Between Two Worlds)
Joe Carter (Evangelical Outpost)
Matthew Anderson (Mere Orthodoxy)
And, there are the members of the Huckabee Iowa Pastors Coalition: Terry Amann, Walnut Creek Community Church, Windsor Heights; B. Mark Anderson, Muscatine; Steve Benton, Faith Bible Church, Cedar Rapids; Bruce Branson, Central Avenue Baptist Church, Hartley; Bruce Brooks, Ninth Street Baptist Church, Spencer; Brett Callaway, Faith Bible Church, Baxter; Kevin Collins, Vinton; Kelvin Cooke, Grace Brethren Church, Waterloo; Dustin Cox, Celebration First Assembly of God, Waterloo; Roger Crawford, Calvary Baptist Church, Union; Van Davis, First Baptist Church, Swea City; Rex Deckard, Calvary Apostolic Church, Des Moines; Brien Deverick, Jordan creek Baptist Church, St. Charles; Larry Doughan, Colfax Center PCA, Grundy Center; Sam Dronebarger, Cedar Rapids; Lloyd Eaken, Anamosa; Ben Eilers, Shiloh Bible Church; Mairi Golnick, Faith and Christ Fellowship, Cherokee; LaVerne Harris, Upper Room Tabernacle, Waterloo; Wayne Herman, Berean Bible Fellowship, Glidden; Todd Hessel, Algona Evangelical Free Church; Kevin Hollinger, First Baptist Church, Algona; Mark Holton, Trinity Bible Church, Waterloo; Larry C. Hoop, Colfax Center PCA, Holland; Kerry Jech, New Hope Christian Church, Marshalltown; Joel Jorgensen, Grandview Baptist Church, Estherville; William King, First Apostolic Church, Indianola; Ken Klingman, Trinity Bible Church, Cedar Falls; John Lynn, Dysart; Ken Matteson, Grace Brethren Church, Waterloo; Robert McMurdock, Church of Promise (Buckingham) Waterloo; Dan Merchant, Cedars Street Baptist Church, Tipton; Marcus Moffit, Calvary Baptist Church, Archer; Daniel J. Moore, Cromwell Congregational UCC, St. John’s UCC, Creston; Claude Perhelth, Wapello Church of the Nazarene, Wapello; Pinky Person, Faith and Christ Fellowship, Cherokee, Royce Phillips, Tabernacle Baptist Church, Tiffin; Dan Reid, Ottumwa Baptist Temple, Ottumwa; Tim Rude, Walnut Creek Community Church, Johnston; Steve Russell, Jordan Grove Church, Cedar Rapids; Andy Schmidt, Calvary Baptist Church, Waterloo; Phillip Schrauben, First Christian Church, New Sharon; Eric Schumacher, Marion; John Shaull, Iowa Baptist Convention, Winterset; Emad R. Shenouda, St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Church, Urbandale; Brad Sherman, Solid Rock Christian Church, Coralville; Mark Smeltzer, Glenwood Community Church, Glenwood; John Tank, Grace West, Des Moines; Terry Vance, First Church of the Nazarene, Burlington; Mark Waits, The Apostolic Pentecostal Church, Centerville; Kenneth Walker, Jesus Loves You/The River Jordan, Atalissa; Paul Warder, Evangelical Covenant Church, Stanton; Earl Warstler, Waterloo; Bob Waters, Des Moines; David Welch, Plano Christian Church, Plano; Darran Whiting, Marion; and Scott Wilson, Clear Lake Christian Church, Mason City.
And, if you need a few more I should be able to come up with a list of a few thousand more influential Baptists and Evangelicals without too much trouble. The question is, why could you not find more than just one person to include in your list? Was it laziness, or deceit?
COLMES: Let's talk about that. Is the Huck-a-surge -- or Hucka-boom, as some have called it -- could he generally get -- genuinely get the nomination?
NOVAK: Nobody I know thinks he could, but Alan, I have to tell you, nobody thought he'd get this far. Nobody thought he'd be this far ahead in the polls. I can tell you now that the McCain people and the Giuliani people want him to win in Iowa, figuring he doesn't have the organization or the money or the evangelical support is not so important in New Hampshire. They don't figure he could be a problem, and they have to stop Romney in Iowa.
So he is -- nobody cares for Huckabee very much, but the Giuliani and particularly the McCain people see him as their only hope to stop the danger of Romney sweeping the board.
Novak, you actually made me chuckle. "... nobody cares for Huckabee very much..."
Might I direct you to the Rasmussen daily tracking poll which shows him running first nationally...
You really should try to become more in touch with reality before someone puts you into a home for the elderly who no longer have the use of their mental faculties.
STEYN: Robert, this is a fascinating column of yours, because the wrap against Huckabee to date has been that he's not politically a conservative. But essentially what these Baptist fellows are saying is that in Baptist terms he's not a conservative either. That's got to hurt him, hasn't it.
Uh, excuse me Mr. Steyn... Your statement should have been in the singular, - "what this Baptist fellow is saying." Novak relies upon only one person for his article, Judge Pressler. I know that you are from Canada, but surely what one old timer conveys to another old timer about the good ol' days in Baptist Zion isn't really that fascinating.
NOVAK: That's right. He was definitely on the other side in this really aggressive, vicious, may I say, war in the Southern Baptist Convention. It was in the 1970's and through 1980's. He was definitely on the liberal side. These people have long memories and remember that. But, Mark, let me tell you that, nevertheless, there are certain kinds of Baptists and Evangelicals that say this is one of our own. He may not be perfect. That's what one of the Baptists that I interviewed said. He may not be perfect, but he's one of ours.
So it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I believe he has to have solid evangelical support even to win in Iowa.
Novak, you finally get around to saying something that is true; we have long memories. That is why we know that you have lied about Huckabee, caricatured Baptists, and revised history to serve your own political agenda.
We also remember what you said about us evangelicals just a few weeks ago. Let me remind you, " The rise of evangelical Christians as the motive force that blasted the GOP out of minority status during the past generation always contained an inherent danger if these new Republican acolytes supported not merely a conventional conservative but one of their own." You and the other Republican elite always wanted our evangelical votes, but you wanted us to follow along behind you like bewildered sheep to be fleeced. You did not want us to actually participate in the process and it angers and frightens you that we are no longer obeying your commands. Yes, Novak, we remember well and we will remember for a long time the vitriolic and misleading tactics being employed by you and other members of the Republican elite against evangelicals. This is just the first inning...
STEYN: You get the sense that he could hold enough of that support in Iowa, but at some point this does have to kick in. Do you think by South Carolina, for example -- I assume he has no chance in New Hampshire. A good third place showing is probably his most likely result there. But by South Carolina, a lot of this stuff has got to kick in, hasn't it?
NOVAK: I think it will. You look at him; there's so many things about him that make him an inauthentic conservative. For example, he's against school choice. He got the School Teacher's Union endorsement in New Hampshire. What kind of Republican gets the school teachers' endorsement? So on top of this, you find that he has been on the liberal or the moderate side in the Baptist wars, which may not be known in the ordinary non-Baptists. But I think most Baptists know about it. I think that's a problem.
When you run out of things to say, just throw the kitchen sink. By the way, Huckabee is NOT against school choice. Would it really pain you to spend two minutes at MikeHuckabee.com to find out what he really believes?
STEYN: Yes, it sounds like he might make a good Christian left leader, like they've apparently been looking for for some time.
Steyn, even a naturalized Canadian ought to have a grasp of the American socioreligious milieu so as not to make such an absurd statement. You need to know that people all over the internet are making fun of you for playing the stooge in Novak's vaudeville act. Evidently, they do not know that you serve the same role for Hugh Hewitt on a routine basis.
NOVAK: I think that is the case. And he has -- he has kind of a mean side. I wrote in the column that he kind of jumped on Judge Pressler when he encountered him in California several weeks ago. But in Texas on Tuesday he -- I'm sorry, yes, on Tuesday for a fund-raiser, he invited Judge Pressler. He embraced him. So, Governor Huckabee is -- you can't always be a mean guy in politics. You have to pretend you're nice.
Novak, with this accusation I am sure that you probably completely derailed Huckabee's campaign. When people find out that you, who has such an impeccable reputation for being a gentleman, are claiming that Huckabee isn't nice, I am sure that his whole campaign will disintegrate. You really are desperate, aren't you?
STEYN: He's done a good job of it so far. It will be interesting to see how long that holds up. Robert Novak, thanks very much.
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